Why living in London, ON? Interview with Caroline Blumer, singer

Podcast Ontario Beyond Toronto (English transcript): In this episode, we spoke with Caroline Blumer, a music teacher who decided to start a new life in Canada. She lives in London, Ontario.


Audio in Portuguese. Read the English transcript below.

The city of London – Location

Why living in London, ON? Interview with Caroline Blumer, singer
Transcripts (Automatic English translation – unedited)

Hi, I’m Christian Pedersen and this is another episode of the series Ontario beyond Toronto, a podcast of Brazilian Wave Canada. In this episode, the question is: why did Caroline move to London? Hold on! It is not London, England, but it is Ontario’s London. Well, there is a London in Canada, with just over 300 thousand inhabitants and located about 200 km southwest of Toronto. Basically, halfway between Toronto and Detroit, in the United States. Who ended up in London was Caroline Blumer, who just over two years ago left Campinas for the Canadian city, to do a doctorate.

Christian: Caroline, how are you?

Caroline: Hi. All right, Christian, how about you?

Christian: Everything’s great! Thank you for participating in our Podcast . How did your passion for popular culture and music education for people with disabilities arise?

Caroline: I work with music and come from a family of musicians. So, actually, my history with music started very early. I am a professional musician and music educator. About 12 years ago, I was working in the field of musical theater and I was invited to direct an inclusive show. I didn’t really have the idea of ​​what it was, what the inclusive musical spectacle represented. I went to work with the actors and dancers and did the vocal preparation and musical direction of the show. That’s when I started to get involved with people with disabilities: making art, making music. Hence, also, I became involved with a part of music education: in developing strategies, in developing ways of interacting, of working with music and elements of music with people with disabilities. And in fact, opening up a little more to this issue of inclusion in general, of diversity. It was unusual for me. It was extremely striking and was a watershed in my career as an artist (because I am P erformance, too) and as an educator. From then on, I started to see things a little more broadly and to create…, in the sense of having more flexibility in artistic creation.

Christian: You finished your master’s degree in 2018 and arrived here in 2018. How was it all?

Caroline: Actually, like this … my husband is also a musician and it has been some time since we wanted to have an experience of living abroad. We both work with Jazz, with American music, with music production, with things that involve music, in a very broad way. And we always wanted to be able to live abroad, in Europe or somewhere else. And we started to research the places. And in the middle of this course, going to the end of the master’s degree, there was a scholarship contest from CAPES [Coordination for the Improvement of Higher Education Personnel], and I started to research, to take it more seriously and think about this possibility. And that’s how it all began. We were researching universities and seeing that it would be a possibility to really immigrate to Canada or, at least, stay here for a while, so that we can understand what this experience of living abroad is like. And here we are. I finished my master’s degree (I defended on June 20, 2018) and on August 20 I was arriving here in Canada .

Christian: All this, then, with the suitcase ready, practically …

Caroline: I applied for the scholarship and the university here, in January 2018. We already had more or less this desire, and, in a way, we were already researching. But when that happened, we had to mobilize to organize everything. To direct our life so we can come here and build a structure here, right?

Christian: Did you and your husband get the same type of visa?

Caroline: My visa is a student visa Full T im e and it is a work visa.

Christian: When you went to apply, did you already know what London would be?

Caroline: So, actually, I researched several universities to apply to. Some of them had already passed the deadline. I talked to the people at McGill University in Montreal. But, also, I didn’t speak French. But at McGill, you can take the course and speak in English. But then, I started researching and saw that Western University has a very interesting music education course. And then, I started to have contact with some people and they opened the door to my project, they became interested. And in the end, I paid for CAPES and was approved on the scholarship. However, with the political issues of our country, this scholarship ended up not happening and the university here ended up giving me a doctoral scholarship. It is a grant that they give to all students here. It is a work grant.

Christian: And how long does this doctorate last?

Caroline: The doctorate is 4 years. Her scholarship covers four years. After that, I know that you have to pay the tuition (fee). In my case, I don’t pay for an international student’s tuiton. I pay tuition for the Canadian luno, which is a little cheaper because it is a Ph.D. course. The CAPES scholarship would be interesting because it is a full scholarship. I wouldn’t have to work, just dedicate myself to my studies. However, with the scholarship I have here, I think I ended up learning more. Because we end up working at the University with undergraduate students, with teachers. So, it’s a huge learning experience. Much more than just doing your research, doing your classes, right? So, you have much more intense contact with the culture, with the whole structure. So, for me, it was better.

Christian: In this case, did the university provide housing for you? How was that part?

Caroline: It was really crazy! Because the visa took too long to leave. I applied in May and our visas were going out in the middle of July. So, this was a very tense question, because we didn’t know if the visa was going to be ready in time. And I had to be here in August to be able to enroll (and not miss the course). Without a visa, we cannot come. He ended up leaving, in a very busy process. So, I contacted the university. They have some houses that you rent, which are apartments inside the Campus. There are some for families, some for single people. But we ended up not being able to keep this apartment because the visa was not ready. So, we chose to stay on an Airbnb for 3 weeks and, in this period, we tried to rent an apartment here. An interesting thing, which I think, is that the Brazilian community here has several groups on Facebook. And it was this group from London that helped us. We ended up disclosing that we were looking for an apartment, and then, they helped us find a place that, if it were compatible with what we could afford.

Christian: As you said at the beginning, you had no international experience and, suddenly, you arrive in Canada, more specifically, in London . What it was like to look for a place to live, to deal with the first days at the University, everything in the new country, new culture. How does it feel?

Caroline: It’s all very new. And, for us, we didn’t have a period, for example, to come earlier. There are people who have the privilege of being able to go out, visit a place, visit before coming to live. In our case, no. We came with the face and the courage. With the faith that everything was going to be all right. And knowing, somehow, that we were guaranteed by the scholarship and some money that we had. So, the feeling was like this … at the same time that we are in love with everything (because you see the new world, Canada is a very beautiful country!) And the people here in London are very friendly. So, at the first moment, you are amazed by everything. But at the same time, it is a feeling of insecurity because it is all very new. We don’t know how things work. And this is very different from Brazil (that I felt). Here in Canada , even for you, renting an apartment is very different from how we are used to in Brazil. So, it ends up being more difficult, because you have to understand a dynamic. It’s a lot of information at the same time.

Christian: What was the most complicated challenge?

Caroline: I think one of the most challenging things, when we arrived here, my husband is a music producer and we decided to bring some of his equipment so that he could work here. And we came by a flight that passed through the United States, through New York. Our concern was immense that we were unable to get through with the equipment. But in the end, everything worked out. After we got here, we were very lucky. First, to be welcomed by the Brazilian community and also to have met Canadian people who helped us. But one of the biggest challenges was this cultural issue. I think it is a shock that everyone faces in the beginning: the language, the culture, understanding how people behave here and how they also see their culture.

Christian : Even more at the university, which is already in another world! Not only are you moving to another country, but there is a different world from the university … 

Caroline: It was very hard for me. In the first year, it was practically 24 hours inside the house. My husband did everything at home, because I couldn’t afford it. We are a very modern couple, but even so, I was… it is a lot for you to process: the education system; the disciplines that we have; so much reading … because the amount of things we have to read is overwhelming and you say: how am I going to be able to read all of this in another language? And understand; not, simply, read. Understand and discuss with teachers about it. It gives a fear, that you say: my God, will I be able to handle it?

Christian : Are your colleagues also foreigners or do you have more Canadians?

Caroline: Look, here we have a lot of diversity in our music program (which is a very interesting thing!). There are only 4 students in my class: me, another girl from England and two Canadians. But in the program as a whole there are people from Azerbaijan, some students from China, another student from Brazil, who entered this year, and some students from the United States.

Christian : How is this culture shock?

Caroline: It’s wonderful! I am suspicious to speak, because as I am a musician and I am connected to the area of ​​culture, I am connected with the part of Brazilian popular music . I am very interested in this issue of cultural exchange. So, for me, I think it’s wonderful! After that initial shock, you say: my God! How am I going to deal with all this? After you understand that: OK! It will give to take away! Several people have already done this, I am not the first nor will I be the last. So we will do it. Come on! We go in faith, with calm, patience and maturity. Because I think this is an experience that makes you mature. You have to face things with maturity. After that first shock passed, it was wonderful to be with everyone here, make friends and get to know other countries.

Christian: Do you think that coming alone without a husband would have been more difficult or do you think his presence helped?

Caroline: I think it helped, for sure! First, because you have someone to tell. So, you are not alone in this boat, which already helps a lot. And in my case, my husband is also a work partner. We have been working together for a long time. So, what was good for us, is that we came and already after six months that I was here in London, we were already performing, playing, interacting with the artists of the city. This is another interesting question for those who are thinking of coming, who is a musician, who is in the cultural area. Because people think there will only be things for them in the big cities. And this is not entirely true. Obviously in Toronto, Montreal, sometimes in Ottawa, there is a larger community of artists and more opportunities, of course! But there is also a lot of competition! When you come to a city, which is not that big, it is also possible, because there are many cultural spaces. Canada is a country that fosters culture, it fosters art, it values ​​art. After only six months that we arrived here, we are registered with the London Arts Council as local artists! So, if you enter the site, from the city, you will see it. We were very happy for that, for being a community that opened up. In a way, we are the only Brazilian musicians. There aren’t that many professionals here in London. There are some amateur musicians, but professionals who live on the music, they have, I think, very few Brazilians. I don’t know any, to tell you the truth.

Christian: Here in Ontario, we play when people talk about London (or London). We ask: which one are you talking about? England’s or Ontario’s? What was it like to tell people that you were moving to London? Not that of England, but that of Canada?

Caroline: There are people who, even today, think I’m in England! (Hahaha). But it was all so fast that it happened, that I didn’t have time to talk to people: look people, I’m going to live … I’m going away. As it took my visa to come out (and it came out at the last minute), I didn’t advertise to people, because I didn’t know if I was going to leave, if it was going to work. We stay in that insecurity… when he left, we took everything and came. So, today, we often have to explain: they are in London, but it is London in Ontario.

Christian: Does the city of London have a strong music scene? Is it a good place to develop a music career?

Caroline: Look, it depends on what you’re up to. In my case, I am always between the cross and the sword, because I am working in academia and I intend to pursue a career in academia. So, for me, the city of London in the area of ​​music would be really cool (because Western University is one of the largest in Canada, it’s the second largest university in Canada and the music department is very good). In the case of a performance artist , I think London is a city that offers opportunities, but if you want to develop a broader career, you will have to connect with other regions. The artist is like that, the artist goes where the people are, as the saying goes. Because the cool thing, here in Canada, at least less than I’ve seen so far, is that there are many festivals. You have here the Sun Fest and the Blues Festival, here in London. I know that in other cities nearby ( Hamilton, Stratford, Kitchener …) they also have local festivals during the summer. So, this for the musicians here, is where they have high season. It is where the people who work, they engage in these performances that take place here. And it’s really cool because they usually happen outdoors (not now, because of the pandemic, this summer it didn’t happen outdoors). Usually, they happen in the squares. It is open to the public and people go, go, take their car seat, take their beer, their suquinho. They really enjoy the music that is offered a lot.

Christian: Do you feel that Brazilian music is known to Canadians? What is the look, their acceptance of Brazilian music?

Caroline: I think the Brazilian is welcome. Especially when it comes to music, culture, Brazil has a lot to offer. It has a huge musical diversity and I, as the artist, was very privileged. Because I had in my training, the opportunity to get involved not only with classical music, which is part of the training of every musician (at least most of the musicians), but, I got very involved with popular culture in Brazil. So , today I feel comfortable to come here and share this culture. What happens is that, at times, people do not know much about the culture of Brazil. They hear about it. So, people ask about the Girl from Ipanema, Carnival, football, which are the most common themes. But, it is interesting that, when you go deeper and exchange more on the subject, there is a lot of interest. And when we present Brazilian music in various ways, be it samba, be baião, be choro, be Bossa Nova itself, it is very well received. Because we are musicians in the Jazz area, we started playing and the musicians wanted to come and play with us. But it was very difficult for us to find a musician to play Brazilian music, to play samba, for example. The drummer who is playing with us, currently, he lives in Waterloo and he is from Macedonia . He played with the Circ du Solei in Germany. The people just getting to know the Internet and ended up giving right to play. Because, really, Brazilian music is a very different song. It is not, simply, to put a score and go out playing. There is no such thing. It is a very specific question. We have already had this exchange of playing with other musicians … Cubans, Africans. My husband is playing with a Canadian singer who calls Lorraine Klaasen. In fact, she is South African and has lived here in Canada for many years. She was based in Montreal… she lived there in Montreal for many years and now she is living here in London. Then, when we arrived here, one of the university’s professors said: “I know a singer who is looking for a pianist”. And then, it worked. Also, because African music and Brazilian music have a connection. We are children of Africa, right? So it agreed. But then, it is very difficult. Even if you have very high level musicians here at the university, it is difficult for you to find people who can adapt and play Brazilian music in a way that sounds like Brazilian music.

Christian: Tell us a little bit about Aiyoyo.

Caroline: We already had this project and then, we redesigned it. When we arrived here in Canada, people wanted to see a website , they wanted information and we didn’t have it ready. So, Aiyoyo is a project where we make reinterpretations of songs from all over the world. Popular music, especially Jazz, Multiple Brazilian silica Blues … we do some original arrangements of the songs. Also, it is a space that, in the future, we intend to release our copyright songs. And we offer our performance for cultural events, company events. So, we have already played at some events here. Sometimes, too, we play at weddings or parties (which is also part of). But, Aiyoyo’s goal is for us, in the future, to be able to put our authorial work and be expanded to play more at the festive parties here in Canada. One step at a time.

Christian : How do the children of London relate to music and music in the curriculum?

Caroline: Look, I have been in contact, because I, as I am doing research here, I have contact with several local schools (both Elementary School and High School ), in Canada in general, but, there is a very great diversity ( such as ethnicity) in the classroom. Yes, there is an incentive… .Music is part of the curriculum here and it is mandatory, as far as I know, at Elementary School and, in this case, Elementary School , we call music education. So, it is not exactly the instrument music class. But it is a musicalization. So the children will have contact with music in a more playful way, through games, through choir, singing. There are several strategies that children will be working on and developing their musicality. Then, it will depend on each teacher. At high school it seems like it’s optional. So, they have several models here. It depends on the school. There is a school, there are bands (which have a larger structure), there are others that have choirs. They are more traditional styles and there are some other schools where there are programs more open to music and also more progressive methods, which we call music education, right?… More inclusive. In music, here, it is still the tradition that dominates. These traditions of the band, the wind instrument or string instrument that is a little different from what we know in Brazil. Music education in Brazil has another story, too. So, you can’t compare. These are very different things.

Christian: Canada’s London doesn’t have a subway like England’s. How do you get around? Do you have a car?

Caroline: We live close to college. You can’t go on foot. But, by bus, it takes 15 minutes. So , it’s really quick. Here in London, that was something that I felt a lot. Because we realize that almost everyone has a car here. We haven’t bought it yet, because we didn’t feel that we would need it so much. So far, we have been able to do everything we need by bus. In a practical way, I live in front of a supermarket and I don’t have to go out and about. The only problem is when we have to introduce ourselves. Because then, we have to rent a car or go by Uber. Sometimes, we go with someone. So, this is the most complicated side, for now. Because I lived in São Paulo (in the last few years I was living in Campinas), and in Brazil, we have buses for everything that is a corner. Here in London it is not like that. There are some places in the city that simply do not have buses. There is no bus line that goes there! So you go by Uber or there’s no way.

Christian: What do you like and dislike about London?

Caroline: I enjoy a lot of things here in London. It really was a city that I liked a lot. One of the coolest things is the spaces that we have, because there are many parks. Especially in the summer, you have many options for going out nearby. One of the things I like the most here is this nature. London is also known as Forest City and is really a city full of greenery. I love. Personally, it’s very tasty! And what I don’t like is this part of the bus, oddly enough. Because I always liked and always used a lot of buses. Even though I had a car in Brazil, I used the bus a lot, as a matter of practicality.

Christian: How is the security issue? How is it there, in relation to what you lived in Brazil?

Caroline: Look, it’s a very drastic change. Very drastic! I was living in Campinas, which is a city that has 2 million inhabitants, practically, and is violent. But I, in particular, have never been assaulted, like this, in a violent way. Just a few simpler things, there, more peaceful. Now here, we realize that we are even more relaxed. You walk around with a cell phone on the street and don’t worry if someone will come and steal it. Of course we get smart with things but …, for me, a fact happened here that, after that happened, I thought: people, only in Canada! If it were in Brazil, never !. I was working as a volunteer (I am a volunteer in several projects here for music education, for people with disabilities). And a friendly teacher, here in the course, lent me a bag full of band instruments (instrument for children) for me to work on this voluntary project. Because I didn’t bring my instruments from Brazil and here I don’t have that many instruments. And she said: “Carol, you can take it and use it because I’m not using it and such”. I took the bus to the place, which is on the other side of the city. So, you have to take 3 buses to get there. It was a winter day and I was carrying a lot of bags. I just know that I arrived at the mall to catch the other bus, got off the bus where I was, took my bag and… left the instrument bag inside. And then, when I got off, I realized and tried to run after the bus. It didn’t work, I couldn’t do it. And then, I was desperate and I said: people I lost my teacher’s instruments. How am I going to do it now? Then I called the bus station and told the girl what was going on. She automatically contacted the bus driver and said: “You will have to wait 40 minutes until he does the cycle. Stay there. Do not leave. When he comes back, you take the instrument ”. I said: well, now I am in the hands of God. Whatever turns, turns. And I stayed there, waiting those 40 minutes there, praying and taking something to calm myself down. And there was no other. The bus arrived and the driver already saw me, recognized me and the bag was in exactly the same place as I had left it. And it was intact! It really is a difference.

Christian: Didn’t you come back to Brazil yet, after you got here?

Caroline: I went once.

Christian: And how was the shock? Because there is the other shock to the reverse. When you get there, you start to compare in reverse, let’s say like this …

Caroline: I don’t like to make comparisons, because I think it’s very unfair to compare. Brazil is a wonderful country and they have wonderful things, too. There are many things I like! And Canada, too. But they are different stories, so I don’t like to compare. It is obvious that Brazil is our home, so it tastes different. But what I realized, and that at the time, like this, came to me, is that as soon as I arrived here [in Canada], especially in the first year, everywhere I went, I had to think: how am I going to say this in English? I went to the bakery, I went to the market and any information I was going to ask for, I had to think beforehand. Then I was in Brazil, together with my mother, and I went to a pharmacy and, before entering the pharmacy, I was doing this: how am I going to order this medicine in English? Then, I realized: wow, I’m not in Canada, I’m in Brazil, let me speak Portuguese! (Hahaha)!. When we’re here, we don’t realize how much our brains are… how tiring it is! There were days when I came home and I was like that, just the dust of the rabiola, as people say. I was extremely exhausted and I had done nothing different than what I would be doing in Brazil. But, because I am speaking in a foreign language and everyone is speaking at the same time …, it is very tense for people’s bodies. It is not just a matter of culture shock.

Christian: After completing your doctorate, do you intend to stay in Canada?

Caroli ne: I want to stay here. Now, as a doctoral student, under the legislation here, I am entitled to apply for three years of work experience in Canada. So, I intend to do that.

Christian: Are you going to stay in London or do you want to leave London?

Caroline: It will depend on what is possible in terms of work, on the opportunities that are happening. I like London a lot and so does my husband. But, I think for him, who is in the music production area, there are other cities that offer more opportunities. But we’ll see. Now I’m already in a phase where I’m not doing any more discipline, I’m just doing my research, doing the work in Part Time. Now I have more flexibility to start thinking about what is going to be going forward. But, I want to stay here. We intend to immigrate to Canada.

Christian: What about the winter issue? How was your first winter? Because you are recent here.

C aroline: Two winters. Now I go to my third. I think we were very lucky because the first two winters, which we spent here, people say it was not that complicated. I was born in São Paulo, but I lived six years in Curitiba, in my adolescence, which is a very cold city in Brazil. So, in a way, I got used to it a little bit. But, I don’t mind the winter here in Canada. I got used to it very fast. Mainly, because you don’t feel cold inside the house. That is the best thing. Because in Brazil we feel cold at home. In the beginning, the hardest thing for us to get used to was the snow! It takes a while. Canadians have an impressive winter structure! They have a machine for everything. To clean the streets, to clear the snow… we see that there is a strategy for everything. And one of the things, which I found very nice here, is the issue of security, in the sense that when there is a freezing rain or when there is a very heavy snowfall, for example, they really stop everything and say: “ go home “or” let’s close it so that everyone is safe and doesn’t have any kind of accident “. Because it really happens, right? … a serious accident.

Christian: The weather forecast here is really important. The first or second thing you do on the day is to look at the weather outside, because your day will depend on that.

Caroline: I’m learning this, see, Chris?

Christian: Have you reached that stage that 1⁰C is good?

Caroline: Ah, now! But, it is amazing how our body adapts! Even an American teacher of mine, she speaks; “Look, november is the worst month. Because November is when the cold really comes and your body is adapting ”. Then, after that, it looks like it goes on automatic.

Christian: But then, you value the climate too, right. You know that you have to enjoy the summer well because then everything will change …

Caroline: I think that is very beautiful. That, I think was one of the things I learned from Canadian culture. Brazil is a place where we have everything all year long. We are very privileged there, and I think that we value this very little. Because there, you planted it, you have a whole year, you know? Even winter, practically, does not exist. So, mainly, in some places in Brazil , there is really no difference. And not here. Here, this issue of the seasons is very important, because there is time for everything. And if you don’t, you won’t have it. If you don’t plant, you won’t reap. That’s how it works. So, we see that there is this dynamic, and it is a dynamic that I think is very healthy, which brings this more productive thing. We see that autumn and winter are the seasons that people produce a lot, right? They work hard! And in the summer, you see that the people enjoy the summer, that they go to the beach, they go out. For the Canadian there is no bad weather. They are enjoying it all the time; I think this is really cool

Christian: Do you practice the cold sport there? Have you ever done anything winter?

Caroline: Oh no! (Hahaha). For two reasons. One, because we are not familiar (I went to watch a hockey game and such). But, as we are a musician, we do physical activity, but we do not play impact sports, because we are afraid of breaking a leg, of breaking an arm and being unable to play. Even if it is for a while. Because we use our body to play. So we have a little bit of that.

Christian : What would you advise someone who wants or plans to come to London?

Caroline: Ah! I think the important thing is for you to research. You make a lot of contact (I did that a lot!) Before you came. I joined the Facebook communities . There are also a lot of channels on YouTube, where people talk about the city. So I think people, first, have to research and prepare. Because you can’t just see it as an adventure. You have to think that you are going to be in a strange country, so we are going to have difficulties. But, at the same time (and it is one of the things that I speak for myself), I know many Brazilians here and each one has a different experience. So, people cannot be measuring themselves by the experience of others. You have to make your own way and think about what your goal is. What you want. If London is going to offer you what you want, otherwise, which city is it going to. There are so many cities! Search according to your objective, research and find out. From there, go to action, even, and make it happen! One of the things that I think is important is that people are open to live experiences. Because if you come up with a very fixed idea in your head, it will be kind of complicated, right? Because you are in a different country, which has different rules. You have a different culture and nothing prevents you from maintaining it, because (and this is legal in Canada!) They allow and even cherish people to maintain their cultures, their traditions and their countries. They respect that, but at the same time, you, too, are in different territory. So the sooner you accept this, the better !

Christian: And what was your level of English when you got to college? Were you able to communicate?

Caroline: Yes. I was able to communicate. Especially because we have a minimum score … you have to do Toefl, you have to have a minimum of English so you can do a doctorate or master’s degree, vd abroad. But even so, it is one thing for you to communicate and another thing for you to express yourself fully. I didn’t have a level (and I still don’t have) full fluency in English. I don’t consider it, yet. I communicate well and I even teach some classes in English, I even worked with children. But, everything I do requires a great deal of preparation for that. I prepare to teach a class, I prepare to talk about that, I prepare for situations. Because it’s not like that in automatic, yet, that I arrive and man! I’m still struggling and studying hard for it to become more and more natural, right? So as not to have to think: ouch! How am I going to say this, how am I going to say that? Some things are already flowing well, but others still have a way to go.

Christian: What would Caroline, today, say to that July 2018 Caroline, who was almost here? What advice would you give her?

Caroline: I would tell her to continue. Not to give up, because it will work. What I learned, with this whole process, is that if we have a dream, if we have a goal, it will not fall from the sky. It will not be easy and everyone has their own story. But, everyone has some point of challenge, because you are leaving the comfort zone. So, I would say to myself: continue! Go!. Because I didn’t regret doing that. On the contrary, it has been a fantastic experience, a great learning experience. These are opportunities not only in the work area, but mainly in life.

Christian: On behalf of the Wave team, I would like to thank Caroline Blumer for the interview and also for allowing us to play an excerpt of an Aiyoyo song during the interview. And it is worth clarifying that the opinions and experiences reported by our guests do not mean that it will be the same for someone else. The important thing about these episodes is that people get to know a little about what it is like to live and live in these places. If you made it this far, thank you for your audience and until the next episode.

Podcast: Ontario Beyond Toronto

  • Direction and interviews: Christian Pedersen
  • Production: Christian Pedersen e Ana Carolina Botelho
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The views expressed in this podcast are the views of the interviewee and do not necessarily reflect those of the Province.